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Content ---- ---- In a fear-mongering fashion, and because you constantly fight against the concept OF raiding, you're dishonestly conflating "Hardk0re Raider", with "A raider". Edited September 20, 2015 by Dharnell | |} ---- Fixed that for you. He did some great stuff while he was here, but the 'hardcore' push pretty much started and ended with him, and he's not here anymore. If you guys are gonna run the argument around the barn again, let's at least be accurate about it. | |} ---- ---- ---- They take awful screenshots. | |} ---- ---- All the world bosses are being reworked into casual raids for Drop 6. That's a pretty good start. | |} ---- I disagree. If it ended with him how it is then that we don't have 'casual' modes for raiding? How come the progression follows a clear hierarchy of 'solo->small group->raid'? How come the new end-game crafting changes are designed to lure new players to do raids? Sure, Carbine might not be explictly spitting the word 'hardcore' in our faces, but their actions do. | |} ---- Oh stop cheer-leading already, and actually think for once. His adjective doesn't even hold up to the current state of WS's raiding, let alone the ease of transitioning into raiding in F2P. Which was my point. Which has nothing to do with his past arguments. Yasfan's a big boy. No need to come to his rescue and make excuses for him, by portraying his statement as being "tongue-in-cheek, when it was just patently false. There has been practically nothing "Hardcore" about WS's raiding for the past few "drops". With the exception of "maybe" Hardmode Augmentors. Edited September 20, 2015 by Dharnell | |} ---- ---- The casual raider has just ONE less option than the "Hardcore" raider. So two out of three options in a small pool of them. Our guild is pretty much the definition of "casual". We don't care about min-maxing, or any of what the "hardcore guilds do, and we're now 6/9 in DS. As for the review, it was a fair one. Edited September 20, 2015 by Dharnell | |} ---- | |} ---- "Oh no! Someone agreed with someone I disagree with! And they are showing it openly! How terrible! Let's tell them they are a person who can't think, unlike me!" How is Carbine making transitioning into raiding easier in F2P? This is an actual question, you see, because I can't think. Just as an exercise, enumarte all the options they have, and then the one option they don't have. | |} ---- Less transparent attempts at "Boo-hoo! He's Picking on Me!" martyrdom/self-victimization and more substance, please. And I know you can't, that's why you asked the question. Anyone who has the mental capacity to do even a minute amount of research about the PTR would know (or would know rather quickly) that they pretty much made the entire attunment process 4 steps for DS attunment. Buy Key for 8 gold - bronze medal on Dungeons - kill Kythria - kill Ohmna in GA So less "repeating what Yasfan says" more "actually thinking for yourself". Try it. It feels good to be your own man. Oh, and your exercise of you removing existing content is pointless and irrelevant. Since that's not the direction the game is going, and in reality you just desperately scrambling to be "right" in any way/shape/form. Edited September 20, 2015 by Dharnell | |} ---- ---- ---- 'Cuz pedantry. Edited September 20, 2015 by Dharnell | |} ---- I did answer her post. You just didn't like the answer. Which isn't my problem. And you're correct. But that summation goes against your previous fear-mongering notion of "There's almost nothing for casual raiders, because progression stops quickly, unless you're hardcore!". Which you're now hoping that we all forgot. What you're half-wrong about is that while we're "in the top 20"...it's if you only go by US only. It's much lower than that if you go by world rankings (and it's not even out of 100 guilds). Which is generally the bigger picture and the more important stat with raiders. As "World Firsts" are touted as being more impressive than server-first and even region-first. So you were being deceptively vague, as usual. Edited September 20, 2015 by Dharnell | |} ---- ---- How did they fail to make the Dominion more appealing? They even made them less cartoonishly evil on the Arkship. For example none of the tazering at the start and by making Mondo Zax seem less sadistic/uncaring, by changing his dialogue. Plus, as I said in the Dominion Population thread, it's a bit pre-mature to start claiming that they've failed, when F2P hasn't even launched. For all you know that change could have been all that was needed. Edited September 20, 2015 by Dharnell | |} ---- ---- Hey, welcome aboard! The concensus I've heard about dungeons is that they're a bit less brutal/punishing now. In general. Both low level and veteran modes. | |} ---- I am glad that they changed the Arkship tutorials. I really am. But the way the reviewer described Exiles vs Dominion kinda made me feel that the perspective hasn't changed much. To be honest, I am not even thinking about what's going to happen in f2p that much. I am more basing this on one person's perspective who played the closed beta. | |} ---- ---- The reviewer could also just be thoroughly entrenched in the Exile's camp and not played the revamped Dominion. To which he/she shouldn't have included that portion, since it's clear that he's resorting to memes about them. I'm not even a big fan of the Dominion myself, and even I wouldn't call them "fanatics". Sure they have a lot who follow the church and what not, but even those people are HARDLY what I'd call fanatical. Edited September 20, 2015 by Dharnell | |} ---- ---- I'll deffently share my thoughts, however I do come from WoW where I enjoyed Raiding the most. I heard Raiding in this game was much more challenging so that should be fun. so I guess I'll need to learn what I'll do in the end game on my own, but again the game is what the players make of it. some f2p can sit in cites RPing, some are super alt-ahoclics, some want to get every crafting up ( something I might look into), some love pvp, I think it's just different for everyone even though it's true the biggest PVE attraction are raids. For me I got bored of WoW, I'd only log in 2 times a week for raid and hop off. but ofc if I still enjoyed the game i could LOOK for something fun to do. but I guess I got burnt out, but all I'm saying is I think (Hopefully if tons join!) every player has their own "agenda" so I'm hoping a lot of people do stay after level 50 lol and find things to keep them entertained. | |} ---- ---- Still more of the same deceptive nonsense that I pointed out earlier. Since it's not anywhere close to being "out of 100 guilds". Not even 50. There's only 33 raiding guilds TOTAL on Entity. LOL! So being in the top 20 out of 33 is no different than saying "You're in the top 60%!" Sounds pretty casual to me. Edited September 21, 2015 by Dharnell | |} ---- Since when does casual = needs easier content? | |} ---- ---- I know it started this way, but the level 120 runes only require ilevel 110 now to slot them. | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- wait am i reading this right? the best way to gear up as a non schedule commited raider is to gold grind and buy gear from raiders? so literally nothing has changed, and the options that were there , crafting, vet ship hands ect, are all brick walls now? im not asking sarcastically is that true? edit- do contracts still offer a gearing path ? or has the i levels of that been reduced as well? Edited September 21, 2015 by nlPezz | |} ---- ---- There are some fanatics (such as Toric's brother), but I think the way the reviewer described Dominion went a little overboard. After that, I couldn't really take the review seriously even though I'm sure it had some great feedback. Yazzy . . . (yes that is your name for this one post and probably nothing else!), I've actually never raided in a game before WildStar. In fact, I made a thread about it a while back. Unless you meant someone who literally just started . . . | |} ---- ---- ---- No, it wouldn't be. Paying for reviews is not and never has been a valid way to advertise o_O | |} ---- ---- My first thought was that this "review" is bought. As someone who didn't play since release I still find, over one year later, many of the bugs that were at the beginning. Besides performance, z-axis problems with skills, espcially constant ui-bugs, like not disapearing loot icons, call icons, not updating skill icons and other numbers etc. How this could get a legit 91+% is a mystery. | |} ---- Which bugs besides the ones you listed are still there? The only issue I've seen that's currently in live "now" is the call icon one. The rest, I don't recall ever seeing. And which skills specifically are "bugged" on the Z-Axis? I literally have one of each at lvl 50, minus an Engi who is 47. I could hop on the PTR, to further test it. | |} ---- I presume he's talking about the fact that in, say, underwater combat skills often don't hit if the mob is too far up or down, despite being in the targeting thingie. Also happens if you jump high on, say, "they came from fragment zero". You have enemies in the targeting bar, but you won't hit because you're too high up. That's not so much a bug as a problem with the way targeting in Wildstar works, though. Hard to do three dimensional combat, when your targeting zone is two-dimensional. Generally I'd wish people would stop with the whole "omg, this review has been bought!!1" stuff if there's no evidence to support it. Never explain with malice, what you can explain with stupidity - or, in this case, laziness. The review isn't really all that in depth, so it's very likely the person doing it just played the game for a relatively short amount of time and based the review on that, which naturally makes the deeper issues not all that apparent. /edit: Further supported by the fact that the screenshots they're showing only show a level ten character, nothing higher. Edited September 21, 2015 by Wylf | |} ---- That sounds like it's a more of simple range issue, than a bug. But then again even when I'm on my slinger, I tend to physically tilt my character in the enemy's direction when I'm underwater. Not just put the telegraph on them. And it sounds like little more than a conspiracy theory, to claim that the review was "paid for". Edited September 21, 2015 by Dharnell | |} ---- ---- ---- If you don't raid, your progression is 1-50 > vet shiphands > vet adventures > vet dungeons > world bosses > contracts. That is not an insignificant amount of content. If I didn't know anything about endgame and I'd read your post, I would think that you hit 50 and run out of stuff to do. | |} ---- Contracts can be done once you hit 50 so I wouldn't slot it at the very end. Unless you're ordering gear by ilvl. Also if people have no interest in raiding, I doubt they'd do Vet Adventures or Dungeons. Contracts, Shiphands and WB's only go so far and the Summoning nerf has an excellent chance of hamstringing WB efforts. | |} ---- I had no interest in raiding in this game but I was very much looking forward to adventures and dungeons! My few good experiences in them were awesome. Sadly the community convinced me that isn't the place for me until I'm in dungeon purples and know them inside out... Apparently. Get a guild or go home. I went home. Anyway,one can very well be into 5man content but have no interest in the 20man raids. I would say a lot of people who used to raid but don't anymore (time, schedule, interest lacking) would definitely be into 5mans. | |} ---- ---- I was ordering by ilvl :) In the name of "gear progression". When I first started I had no intention of raiding, but was definitely interested in focusing on Vet Adventures and Dungeons. I'm not saying the system is perfect or good, but I think implying that if you don't raid there's no progression at cap is overstating. Dea, if you are exile/entity (no idea on that one), the I would happily take you into dungeons and show you all the ropes. | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- I don't have as good a feel for gear crafting that I'd like but it'll probably be "good enough" to skip several of those tiers even before the Dungeon crafted gear unless CRB goes full cupcake and requires mats and imbuements from adventures. Pretty sure that's not the case. Yep, they're fun. Unfortunately not everybody has had that great an experience attempting them. I know at least one person that would do great but refuses to go back. I probably should have phrased my earlier point as "no intention to run trinity required content" due to time, logistics, fear, etc. Shiphands, zerg yo. WB's (today) as long as you've got enough healers and are aware of the mechanics you're golden. Most adventures and dungeons? Not only do you need the right specs you need to be on your toes or have a super patient group. Now that PUG GA runs are a thing, I'll bet most people running dungeons would, like you, join in on a lark. I caught the raid bug back in swtor and came here with the express purpose of raiding. I'm tickled to death that we're now beating our heads against System Daemons. | |} ---- Excellent point. The reality of PUG GA's has definitely taken my dungeon participation down a notch. | |} ---- I actually don't like dungeons. I'll run them with guildies or for my elder gem weekly, but I'd actually just rather play solo or do random silly things in the game. It's weird, I like raiding (though kinda scared to PUG on an alt) but I still don't like dungeons. | |} ---- What do you not enjoy? | |} ---- ---- ---- Ah! A Dev response! ~runs and hides~ Mechanics-wise, I think the dungeons are fine. Though if my guild made surviving the Mordechai Redmoon fight as a prerequisite to raiding, we'd probably lose at least half our raid team. :P My favorite dungeon is Protogames Academy and my least is Ultimate Protogames at the moment (though I really love the Bev-O-Rage as an NPC, the Gauntlet . . . not so much). I think most of the things I don't like are beyond the devs' control. I don't like how anti-social dungeons could be. At my heart, I think I'm a solo player. Yet, I feel like one of the most anti-social things I can do in this game are group instances (with raiding being an exception). I also don't like how everyone is in such a hurry to finish them that I don't learn the mechanics or optional objectives. I'm basically on auto-pilot doing what the other players do. I actually learned the most about dungeon mechanics and completing optional objectives by soloing normal dungeons (because no one likes doing normal dungeons). I am also the type of person who needs to do something over and over in order to learn it, which is actually why raiding (and solo play) works very well for me. Even for those fast learners, you still need to repeat the same fights over and over in order to get the gear. For dungeons, everyone just wants to queue random instead of deliberately repeating the same one over and over in order to learn mechanics and such. There are some things that are within the devs control that would make dungeons a more pleasant experience for me, even if I don't see things changing anytime soon. One thing is to make all the mobs disappear after you beat the final boss. Sometimes, it's just fun to take in the scenery without worrying about mobs. Also, this helps with players who like collecting lore but don't want to slow down their group. Guild Wars 2 spoiled me with cutscenes (that are skip-able, and mobs won't turn hostile even if only one player is watching them) and I really miss those too. I appreciate what you did with Stormtalon and the conversation between Mordechai and Laveka. I was incredibly sad that we didn't get an epic cutscene after defeating Ohmna in Genetic Archives. Though it seems like you all added some stuff in Datascape (at the beginning at least). There isn't much to be done about the anti-socialness of dungeons, but I think the way the dungeon levels have changed will really help with mechanics. You've made leveling through dungeons viable in F2P so players will have some motivation to run them over and over (for leveling at least), which will also help new 50s be less confused upon trying out vet dungeons. | |} ---- Since it seems that this might not have been answered yet but they did change it to allow players to go into the next room and kill the three minibosses to gear up a bit to better help with fighting SD. Crafting looks to be in a better place then it used to. To my understanding, end game crafting can be better then end game gear though this depends on how much they planned to nerf this back to, though to craft the stuff means having gotten some sort of special drops in that instance, and then to my understanding salvaging gear from that place also gives the stuff needed to craft it. Contract gear currently goes up to ilvl65 I think? Which would be like boss gear but not top tier pieces (ilvl68) from GA. Since they are doing away with three levels of gear in the raids and going with two, mini's and BoE gear are now the equivalent to boss gear/challenge loot. They've also up'd the ilvl of gear from SSM and Protogames to be close to/on par with GA gear as well though I don't know what this means for the F2P release. So for gearing into GA there are contracts, dungeons, and crafting/gold. And for gearing into DS there is GA and crafting/gold. I would hope that there is enough knowledge and help out there now to help out others starting into GA to get going on better footing and while yes there are many pugs for GA, that is generally because anyone that is left has seen and beaten that content many times now and are usually just gearing an alt or passing time. Also pvp gear used to be a thing for GA raids but I have no idea how viable that is anymore for raiding. | |} ---- ---- ---- To be fair, I've done a few bosses in GA and... honestly they were pretty easy. >_>; And we were low-manning it. So I'd definitely put GA into "casual" territory already in terms of difficulty. At least at the start, and it's fairly typical for a raid to gradually ramp up difficulty as you move through it, even the "casual" ones. Granted, I'm used to some pretty challenging raid content, so my perspective may be a little skewed? But I dunno. I'm pretty casual when it comes to raiding now, but I died all of two times due to my own mistakes the first time I went into GA (because it took me a couple tries to figure out the timing of dropping a little bomb and jumping off the platform). I haven't really felt like WS lacks in terms of casual raiding content, just that the attunement process was probably a bit too involved (now fixed). I'm looking forward to the beefed up world bosses. I can't really afford to stay up late raiding on a schedule nowadays (and tend to prefer my evening activities involving friends of mine who don't raid... makes it hard to justify blocking out multiple nights for a raid group that doesn't involve them xD), so those will be a good diversion. Edited September 22, 2015 by Naunet | |} ---- ---- | |} ---- ---- Wot. WoD was basically a filler expansion to tide everyone over to Legion, no matter how you look at it. Their goal was to supposedly make a new Xpac every year, and thus they had a shorter raid year overall. Blizz couldn't make an xpac a year because there just wouldn't be enough time, and anything said by Blizz is basically to be taken with a grain of salt anyway. That's why there were only two tiers this xpac, they were anticipating releasing a new xpac shorther into it's lifespan than WoD dropped in MoP's lifespan, causing SoO to last something like 14 months. It's still likely that Legion will be released towards the summer of next year anyhow. As for demoralizing casual guilds; I saw plenty weekend only guilds progressing farther in Mythic than some 3 or 4 nights a week guilds because they played better and smarter. The most hardcore element outside of ONE difficulty of four was the rep grinding. I think they tried to cater a little too much to the players who wanted a more vanilla experience and in turn kind of alienated the casual crowd a little more. Couple that with the fact that WoD had literally no real content outside of raids for most of the Xpac except sitting in your Facebook style garrison. Sure, there was Timewalking and Mythic dungeons, but that was released late into the cycle. WoD was a failure, but it wasn't due to the raids. If anything, the WoD raids (except Highmaul maybe) were probably the only good thing about the Xpac. I know this easily plays into everyone's "Raids are bad and they shouldn't be the focus of endgame" argument because it seems like this was all they cared about. If anything, most WoW players despise LFR, but I guess a lot of people would just call those players "elitist scumbags". Admittedly, a lot of people hate it because there isn't even a slight presence of difficulty in it. There was also the Garrison fiasco, you basically afked in there instead of doing any real world content. Not having flying basically pissed 95% of the playerbase off. I saw more "I'm Leaving" threads for that reason than anything. They also homogenized all of the classes and watered down their gameplay to "simplify" the game. Crafting was bad, gem removal was bad. Professions were pointless for the most part. It wasn't that they focused on raiding, it was that the rest of the content they offered was so poor raiding ended up being the only aspect of the game left. There are far too many raiding naysayers on this forum, and It's disheartening to me to see so many people hate some of the most interesting, complex, and creative content of the game. I understand that we all want Wildstar to succeed and continue to be enjoyable for years to come; but turning raid content into a costume hunt would probably cause some players to ignore it completely, as stupid as some may find that. I raid for the progression, the thrill of the kill. The knowledge that I'm getting stronger and my character is advancing. Without that, even the kill would feel pointless because I'm not getting anything of value. Maybe some would enjoy raiding solely for their costumes, but I wouldn't and I'm sure there would be others as well. I understand solo players want to progress too, but ruining a portion of content for your needs isn't fun for those of us who want to feel that thrill, feel that rush. I don't understand why people think they deserve the same power and gear that people who put in the time and effort for get while doing content that won't likely ever measure to the same difficulty or time commitment. There are other games for that. I understand again that people want to enjoy the game they play and want to enjoy. I'm extremely worried about the future of raiding in Wildstar, and I really hope it stays the same as it is now. I'm incredibly sorry for flying so far off topic with this reply, but this has been boiling up inside of me for weeks and I finally just needed to get it out there, no matter how badly written it is; I don't have a way with words like other people due. I'm sure there's some backtracking and counterpoints that I may have unknowingly made, or at least acted parallel to other statements. I know there are a few forum goers who are just going to love to pick this apart, tell me how wrong I am, and bash with without actually throwing any insults. The fact of the matter is: I don't care what they say. They have their thoughts and opinions, and I have mine. However, that's not to say I'm not going to enjoy how much they do so. As for something to keep on topic before I undoubtedly get hit with a warning/infraction or ban hammer: The review is void as far as I'm aware. F2P hasn't been released, and they aren't reviewing it based on all of the content. We'll have to wait and see come the weeks after F2P for the true reviews. Besides, true player reviews are all that matters. I don't really care about outside sources that kind of tap into each MMO just to get a baselines for everyone else to look at, without actually trying it themselves. Edited September 22, 2015 by Vicodium | |} ---- All of them are casual if you don't play them hardcore. It's just that Hard Mode augmentors seems "hardcore" because the only guilds with time to do it instead of progressing on GA or DS are the guilds who play a lot and have finished DS. Everyone else is doing GA or DS still because that's where their limited raid time is best spent. As with all things casual vs hardcore it's more a difference of time devoted to the game than anything else. Once the majority of guilds have cleared DS in between now and whenever the new tier comes out then they'll start fooling around with hm augmentors and it won't seem "hardcore" anymore. | |} ---- This, exactly. The content itself isn't what is "hardcore"- it's how people approach it. If you approach it in a more "hardcore" manner, you'll progress through it quicker. But thus far, I haven't seen anything that isn't achievable on a pretty casual schedule. I've heard that DS is very long, so that might end up being an issue for guilds that only raid two nights a week, but it's pretty far into the game before you'd hit that issue. We cleared GA on a two night schedule. It may have taken us longer than others, but we had fun doing it. | |} ---- I would only ask if when you did the few bossee in GA if you did it with groups that already had knowledge of the fights and better-than-dungeon gear? Because back when we started GA, it wasn't easy. But we didn't know what we were doing and were in dungeon blues. We've learned a lot and definitely have improved, and of course there's the gear. Back when we started we were happy if we were able to clear the minis in four hours leaving us four hours to work on x-89. Yeah, I know that sounds ridiculous now (given we finish the first floor in around 40 minutes), but it just goes to show that a lot of inexperienced players can learn and execute this content. As I said in my other post, I don't think the content itself is "casual" or "hardcore"- it's how you approach it. And right now, a casual player who can find a block of four hours, unscheduled time, and look for a PUG on a weekend can now find a full clear fairly easily (at least, exile/entity). GA *is* the "casual raid", but not because it's easy, but because the community knows it and there are enough people outgearing it. It could become even more casual friendly with per boss loot lockouts. | |} ---- I have to agree, for me the best thing in WoD was raids! they were so well done and beautifully made. other than that I really got bored. I'm hoping wild star will be my new game that I play for a long time =). you just have to know everyones going to complain about something.. shit. Wow's fan base roared about FLYING. and for your reply about the review. I'm hoping better reviews will pop up when f2p hits but of course that all depends if it's a smooth relunch =) which I'm hoping it is haha. | |} ---- It was a group that was still working on progressing with X-89 and only recently killed Kuralak, so while some folk may have had contract gear and a few pieces from Kuralak, it wasn't like they were overgeared or anything. But that's not really related to what I meant by "easy", as the group still wiped quite a lot. I just didn't have any issue with the mechanics personally. Watched some videos beforehand and had it figured out in a pull. It was strangely relaxing, even, as I never felt any of the usual intense (positive) pressure I typically get while raiding. Just kinda dodged the red and healed! They seemed on-par - in terms of complexity of mechanics - with typical FFXIV bosses, which I also found fairly easy (personally). xD I'm sure it gets harder as you go through the raid, though - at least I'd hope! | |} ---- Yeah, the individual mechanics in the game really aren't that difficult- it's more the coordination and learning. As with most MMO boss fights, once you've actually learned a fight, it becomes much easier (went from 3 weeks working on Ohmna to one shotting her this week, and I think this was our fourth kill?). So going with a guild where people have figured out the fight makes it a lot easier, assuming you don't have a specific job, because, as you say, the general mechanics aren't too tough. It's fun looking back at our "progression" on x-89. I remember whacking on him a bit and being impressed with just how slow the HP went down. And being so particular about the bomb placement. And a drunken circle member (who never actually got the kill with us) yelling at people for dying in spew. And then telling me I was too "soft" on people before he quit the game. Man, those were the days. X-89 was #hardcore. Now we go in on alts with crummy gear, explain the fight to a few new people, and after a few wipes he's dead. I remember the first alt run we did with a handful of pugs thinking about our first kill and wondering how it took us so long. But really, I experienced the same with Stormtalon- attempt after attempt at clearing the dungeon, and now it's pretty easy to get silver in my sleep with others who are experienced in it, even with non-raid gear. | |} ---- ---- TBH i dont have the feeling fighting a world boss as a REAL raid boss, Real bosses are much more exciting | |} ---- To be fair, an older more developed game can have a tier raid system that is not normal versus hard mode. But a tiered raiding system that works needs to have raids of various difficulty and length, not just difficulty. And needs to think very carefully about how gear is handled within the various systems. WildStar is too fresh for that kind of approach and their raid systems are not very flexible being so long and locked. Can't exactly pop in with a pug on x89 again... Need an alt and game is also alt unfriendly. You're doubling down on issues there. Overall I don't see WildStar capable of providing a tier system of raids of various lengths and difficulty anytime soon. | |} ---- I haven't tried them, but the new versions are supposed to be more exciting. | |} ---- ---- Thanks for the answer. in your opinion, are any trade skills worth having? I'm waiting for f2p to hit and people who have experienced end game for a better review tbh. I do want better reviews for people to be like "oh this game sounds great." ;p | |} ---- ---- haha its fine! tyvm for the quick answers. atm I have tech and Relic hunter and I'm just running around farming just a break from leveling. I don't mind. so I guess I'll pick up alts for tradeskills ;p (even though I planned this) and Architect looks pretty good considering housing is such a cool feature. | |} ---- And here I thought you were ignoring me, but apparently my initial response to you was deleted by a mod. It should have been obvious to anyone who has been paying attention that I was strictly talking about DS guilds. Not all guilds period. Especially since I didn't even mention GA guilds, because the basis of my argument is about my guild being a casual DS guild. Just because (hypothetically speaking) I don't say "non-raiders exist" doesn't mean that I believe "you don't count unless you raid". By your logic, it does. Also..."Shiny new forum design! W00t!" Edited September 23, 2015 by Dharnell | |} ---- ---- its just the beta which has changes along the way....Now a positive review post ftp that would be something to read. | |} ---- The basis of your argument leading up to this post was that being in the top 20 raiding guilds on Entity wasn't a sign of being a very dedicated raiding guilds because there were only 33 DS raiding guilds, which ignores that there's a lot of guilds that haven't downed SD to get onto the DS progression rankings at all, and even more still in GA. This one isn't about raiders vs. non-raiders at all, chum. You excluded all non-DS, post SD raiders from your tally in your effort to prove how casual you are. You're welcome to do that if you want, but I'm not obliged to accept your definition or go along with it. And I'm not going to, for two reasons. First, because there's flatly no reason to restrict that discussion only to DS guilds when it's about raiding in general. Second, because neither your nor my opinion of what's hardcore content and what's casual content is going to matter one bit. We've both been playing the game for more than a year, making us part of the <10% who stayed and not the >90% who left. The game won't survive or fail based on what we think. It will survive or fail based on what the people who are coming to the game with the F2P launch think, and they haven't had any of the endgame content on farm for more than a year. Look at the review that started this discussion. The person who wrote it, how casual do you seriously think they're going to find Veteran Skullcano or SSM, much less GA or DS? Is it going to be a cakewalk for them simply because it's a cakewalk for you? Of course it's no longer as challenging to you now as it was at the start, you've already done it several times. To a new player showing up next week, how many add-ons will they need to find out about and install just to address limitations of the base UI? How much time will they have to spend customizing options, keybindings, and macros just to improve on the default settings? How much tweaking of their hardware and configuration will they need to do just to execute commands and react fast enough to match the tuning of the content? How many of them will be willing to do any of that stuff? How "casual" do you think they're going to find any of the content they need to do that stuff for, unless they get carried through it? And if they do get carried through it, how much fun do you think they're going to have lying dead in the instance while someone who's farmed the content ad nauseum beats it for them? Those are the questions that are going to determine the success or failure of the F2P version of the game, and the reality is that neither you nor I know the answer. We'll find out. | |} ---- See now you're trying to blur the lines between what post-WoW (and probably pre-WoW) experienced MMO fans generally envision as being "hardcore" (the word you used yourself) and replace it with your sudden and new open-ended notion of simply being "very dedicated" when it comes to raiding. "Dedication" btw, does not equal success. So those people wouldn't automatically be in the top 20. So your tweaked category doesn't work. Try to re-invent again. You might have better luck with the next one. Your problem is that you were the one who was playing the baseless skeptic when you brought up the "you're not casual because you're in the top 20" line. Which was nothing more than you "cleverly" trying to call me some sort of elitist because I'm in your own convenient category. Which is based on nothing besides your own outsider's opinion of raiding. Which stems from the fact that you've never raided and know next to nothing about raiding, outside of Youtube videos and your own "handy mathematical equations". Oh, and maybe some new convenient phantom person from in game that you might now mention having "regularly conversed with" for the first time. I didn't include non-DS people in the discussion because it serves no purpose to include them. As my point, (which you continue to miss because it doesn't work with your narrative) is that my guild, which progresses through DS at a decent pace, raids considerably less than most "Hardk0re" raiding guilds do. We're not min-maxers. Nor do we stress things like always using consumables. And yet we're not only 6/9, but we're still progressing through DS. Just at a slower pace than the "Hardk0re" raiders. We even goof around during pulls. Heck, I've been known to Extricate/"Medic Pull" players at inconvenient times, during bosses. Even when we were learning fights. None of those things would really fly in a "Hardk0re" err...."very dedicated" raiding guild. On top of all that, we even raid less overall days than most, and less overall hours per week compared to most "Hardk0re" guilds on Entity. In addition to constantly having our entire raid having to stop for large chunks of raid time, because someone has "baby aggro". So there IS a reason to restrict the discussion about DS guilds, because while the discussion was about raiding in general, what it was based on was a notion that was contradicted by the example of raiding guilds like my own. Oh, and the "raiders vs. non-raiders" thing I used was an analogy to represent the logic you used in your false accusation of "I don't think non-DS guilds exist". Not an example of something that I'm actually accusing you of saying. Which while being ridiculously obvious was still "missed" by you. Which says a lot. The rest of your post (that I cut off) was just an attempt at making some stalemate and was followed by an irrelevant tangent that has nothing to do with what you and I are talking about. Despite your attempts to tie it in. Because your dungeon examples and all your other ones have nothing to do with "Hardk0re vs. casual raid guilds" themselves. Which is what we're talking about. Which means that you deliberately just tried to change the subject, by injecting other types of things that other types of casual players do. Casuals like yourself. Who don't raid, and some of whom who don't want to raid. And don't worry. I didn't forget that you were completely wrong with your previous claim that "Casual raiders have almost no raid content compared to Hardk0re Raiders". That'll even be MORE wrong, when F2P comes and the changes are made in regards to how world bosses work. Since they'll actually require considerably more effort now, due to the increased quality of loot awarded. | |} ---- ----